Cold death of the competitive scene

Update: after several discussions with several prominent scenario and custom map players, I've came up with some palpable demands. Since some people constantly say they don't get the point of this post, let me state it clearly for them. More points will be added in the future.

• Make scenario CWs work. Currently, it's technically impossible to play such game.
  
  
• Have a scenario / custom map mod. Currently, there are zero custom map mods, let alone scenario mods.
  
  
• Stop mods from disallowing ghosting in scenarios. So far there have been numerous warnings regarding this, I'm not sure have there been more severe actions. Forcing the ghosting rule in scenarios would severely hurt the game.
  
  
• Make a functioning map editor. Already discussed in other threads. I've been told it's very bugged and needs a lot more work.
  

Without those, CW scene will still be practically and technically locked on EU+ 10k as it is right now.

The extra point of the post is for competitive community to stop being self-centered. I've presented my insight on why the community is dying and offered several options to prevent the cold death. It's the competitive community's choice whether they ignore it, or face the issue instead. Seeing the responses and upvotes to this post, I see many familiar faces from the competitive scene supporting it. For the rest of the community I have a clear message, to stop being delusional.

---

I am still wondering how much time it has to take to make people realize some apparent things.

First of all, the number of competitive players is constantly shrinking. Since almost all currently active ones registered before 2016 and you can see more and more players going inactive every day, the trend is obvious. Currently active coalitions have at most 100 competitive players, for which I doubt more than half are active. Back in 2016 in the peak period of overall activity, Epic Clan had almost 60 members itself, out of which almost all played CW. Let's not even mention other coalitions like ENIGMA, SM and Mystics all had 20-30 players each. MK and several other smaller coalitions had up to 20 aswell. Unlike in this moment, at that time 90% of the mentioned players were active. The bar to join is very high aswell. All the skills of new players are overshadowed by experience of the old players who are playing the same map for years and years.

Second, the most basic competitive setting, EU+ 10k, has been played out. Since the vast majority of games are played with 6 picks and each team can pick one of the two picks in three parts of the map, there are 8 combinations total to play. Even with a few extra combinations, there is not much change. Adding that the most games are decided in first 8 turns, you can conclude the initial picks as well as the initial picks are the deciding factor in the victory. Now tell me what is the last time you've seen something new happening in CW? All moves have already been seen, they all have been played out. There have been at least 6000 CWs so far (90% of them on EU+) and at least 10 times that many duels on EU+.

The solution to that is obvious, and it's that the competitive scene stops being elitist, exclusive and egocentric. Playing diverse maps, even the other parts of world map, as well as scenarios, would increase the number of people participating in CWs 10 times. There are far more scenario, RP and world map players than competitive players, as it could be seen from several polls conducted in past. The exclusion of them from one of the most interesting features this game offers has to stop, or the game will ultimately suffer. Choose wisely.

Below is the competitive scene, colorized

It isn't people being elitist. It's noobs who are afraid to lose so they don't play. You think anybody would pass on free elo.

Competetive scene is something that SHALL NOT be ever changed. Maybe it seems like it dies off, but it is a basis for something far more great - competetive playing of AW. Dave should use our CW system wisely, advertise the game to gamers that want to play competetive. It is one of the best products that AtWar can offer to players.

Geschrieben von Witch-Doctor, 25.01.2019 at 14:27

It isn't people being elitist. It's noobs who are afraid to lose so they don't play. You think anybody would pass on free elo.

Imagine yourself being any rank less than 9 right now. How would you fare against competitive players that have been here for 3, 4, 5, 6, even 7 years, on their favorite map? Not so well, I agree. Also there are and there have always been coalitions that have low chance of winning a season, but always play a lot of CWs. For example Reservoir Dogs and Bermuda Triangle in past. Right now you have No Rankism, Gifted Unlimited, Pantheon, ConstellationDivided, even Epic Clan. Yet the competitive player base is declining, why is that?

Geschrieben von Oleg, 25.01.2019 at 14:30

Competetive scene is something that SHALL NOT be ever changed. Maybe it seems like it dies off, but it is a basis for something far more great - competetive playing of AW. Dave should use our CW system wisely, advertise the game to gamers that want to play competetive. It is one of the best products that AtWar can offer to players.

Okay. Keep it up and let it die completely, your choice.

Thing is no other map is so diversed,fun and balanced as Eu+.

Geschrieben von Guest, 25.01.2019 at 14:32

Geschrieben von Oleg, 25.01.2019 at 14:30

Competetive scene is something that SHALL NOT be ever changed. Maybe it seems like it dies off, but it is a basis for something far more great - competetive playing of AW. Dave should use our CW system wisely, advertise the game to gamers that want to play competetive. It is one of the best products that AtWar can offer to players.

Okay. Keep it up and let it die completely, your choice.

It will never die. as long as there are two clans that could be formed to play CW. CW scene was in far worse situations, when IVan and Amok left the game with Sun Tzu taking care of everything, days passed without ONE cw. You will just never find the map that is similiar to EU+, when I say similiar, I mean balanced and interesting to play.

+1

+1

Geschrieben von Oleg, 25.01.2019 at 14:35

Geschrieben von Guest, 25.01.2019 at 14:32

Geschrieben von Oleg, 25.01.2019 at 14:30

Competetive scene is something that SHALL NOT be ever changed. Maybe it seems like it dies off, but it is a basis for something far more great - competetive playing of AW. Dave should use our CW system wisely, advertise the game to gamers that want to play competetive. It is one of the best products that AtWar can offer to players.

Okay. Keep it up and let it die completely, your choice.

It will never die. as long as there are two clans that could be formed to play CW. CW scene was in far worse situations, when IVan and Amok left the game with Sun Tzu taking care of everything, days passed without ONE cw. You will just never find the map that is similiar to EU+, when I say similiar, I mean balanced and interesting to play.

many map are interesting to play and balanced u just need to change ur point of view
when scenarios cw would be fixed i hope it can make game more active and more cw can be played

The future are scenarios the competitive scene is dead

I am sorry but what exactly is the point of all of this? It all seems to me that this is just a typical rant about competitive players.

All the time all we hear from the scenario/rp community is that they have bigger numbers, well isn't that usualy the case when things are just easier? I mean come on, sure you have alot of the competitive players whom are verry toxic and egocentric when it comes down to 'gameplay', but lets be honest here. One of the mods were demoted for mentioning that competitive players just have more overall skill, which is a fact, since all scenario/rp players play on is, either a fully made up game, with an ''empire'' of countries, stacks of money, endless amount of troops, borders, allies, etc. or a map with thousands of cities, fully stacked with money and reinfs, Both of those barely teach you any skills besides stacking & spamming. Whilst most of the competitive players could do this all by themselves, in a more efficient way, with better microskills, knowing how to economize, counter strategies/gameplays etc. Having an admin (clovis) denying all of this and not accepting the fact that competitive knows more about this game in general than most RP/scenario players ever will, is just living in a bubble.

The reason most scenario/rp players call competitive players egocentric, smug, elitist and w/e is because most of the competitive players mention all these things above, when they are being doubted as being a better and skilled player, which they are, most of the cases. Plenty of clanwars, worldgames, 1v1's, duels (even on scenarios) have shown this.

As for the reason why the competitive scene is shrinking, sure it may have something to do with the fact that competitive is becoming stale, but lets not forget that all the RP/Scenarioclans invite and accept almost any newcomer to their clans before they even have a chance to pick what kind of player they want to become. Most of the scenario/rp clans have amounts of 150/200/300 people in it, where most competitive clans have no more than 25/30 people in a clan. I mean this alone shows the gap between the two communities.

Basically this whole discussion summarized into 2/3 sentences:
One thinks quantity is better.
Where the other thinks quality is better.

And I am sure you know how the phrase with these 2 words goes

Geschrieben von Waffel, 25.01.2019 at 15:10

And I am sure you know how the phrase with these 2 words goes

Yes, I do. "Quantity is a quality".

What you've just said is that players who've been playing duels and CWs for 3-7 years can beat anybody who hasn't, in the mentioned settings. The fact is that the competitive scene has shrunken to critical low size and that it's quite stale. I proposed a way to solve it, but you just ignored it completely. I see no point to continue this discussion until you read the original post.

Well, I largely disagree with waffel, yes Competitive players are skilled, but playing a map over and over makes you stronger. Yes you know how to perfect expand, you did it a thousand times, yes you know where I will move prob because you saw too many games on the sae map and moves are predicatble and they are the same. Well the competitive should expand into new things, you know the world changes, atwar changes, the competitive must change aswell

Geschrieben von Guest, 25.01.2019 at 15:15

Geschrieben von Waffel, 25.01.2019 at 15:10

And I am sure you know how the phrase with these 2 words goes

Yes, I do. "Quantity is a quality".

What you've just said is that players who've been playing duels and CWs for 3-7 years can beat anybody who hasn't, in the mentioned settings. The fact is that the competitive scene has shrunken to critical low size and that it's quite stale. I proposed a way to solve it, but you just ignored it completely. I see no point to continue this discussion until you read the original post.

First of all, you completely missed the point of my comment, I even said ''even in scenarios'', which obviously is your ''expertise'' I am reffering too.

Then let me remind you that you didn't propose an actual solution at all, all you did was just mentioning a few typical things such as:

Geschrieben von Guest, 25.01.2019 at 14:14

and it's that the competitive scene stops being elitist, exclusive and egocentric.

The ironic thing about this is, that you guys call competitive elitists, exclusive and egocentric, when most of the popular scenarios are filled with the same people (the elites of scenarios), whom are usualy premium and most likely to be rank 9/10+. Not to mention the amount of kicked non-premium and lowranked persons from these games since they are to ''noob'' to play a specific country. Which leads to people SP-farming their way up to a certain rank, so they can finaly play a scenario.

Geschrieben von Guest, 25.01.2019 at 14:14

Playing diverse maps, even the other parts of world map, as well as scenarios, would increase the number of people participating in CWs 10 times.

Most competitive players are capable of playing outside Europe, and especialy those you mentioned, from 2016 and before, have actually played more of those games than a regular scenario/rp player has, so therefore I don't see this as a solution at all, but just a statement.

Competitives can be the elites in their little dying bubble

To fix a problem first you have to admit there is one. As you can see from this thread they are not willing to do that. So the options are as follows. Wait till they leave which by your statement should not take long. Then start a new competitive more players would like to play, rather than get utterly destroyed by these vets and thier infanite vaults of knowledge they refuse to share.
Or start your own clans now, cw on the maps you'd like, and exclude those from groups that caused this mess from participating. Eventually they will all be banned or bored anyways.

Different settings? Yeah, about that... not all settings are balanced, there are exploitable countries in other regions of the world map that can give you an easy win, that's why comp players usually don't play them.

1. Players stop playing this game because it is boring regardless of what different things you try and do. After awhile looking at that 4 minute a turn vs playing a fun fast-paced video game(Maybe PUBG or something) makes you want to stop playing. I rather have a shootout with other players than wait for them to take 4 minutes to move 20 fucking units.

2. Everybody here is toxic. Nobody wants to play with toxic players, they constantly insult you, annoy you, make you discouraged to play this game, I am sure 100% this is a reason why half of the old players quit this game. I am toxic myself but I don't enjoy playing atWar so I don't give a fuck really.

3. Horrible moderators. They abuse and go overboard and if their victim is a competitive player, well, maybe he isn't coming back after that. These moderators are a bunch of children, biased, or generally stupid and the majority of the competitive players don't like them, the rest, they're kissing ass.

Ec never had 60 active players; The trend of new players joining competitive is shrinking, its not insanely drastic though.

And no, theres been over 10k cws played easily. 6k is too little

There are balanced maps out there.
Besides other world map presets could be easily balanced by making an own preset, but no one usually plays them.
Creating a balanced middle east/north america etc. preset doesn't take much effort.

The competitive scene brought their own downfall to themselves.

1. First establish the definition of competitive gameplay in video game
2. Here that means 'equal troops and income for both teams at starting point, fighting to achieve victory through occupation'
3. We played EU+ in 2011 and 2012 because it was the closest to balance, equal starting income and troops for both teams
4. Then came custom maps and map editor, the very point of the game. Majority of us switched to that because now we could play historical wars, fantasy, modern
5. CW players, now with available editor, refused to make balanced competitive maps, instead chose to stay in eu+
6. Since then, for 7 years now, the community is growing, making new maps and wars, while CW players play same map with same players over and over again
7. There was a try to make balanced maps for cw, and i even liked them (Destoria & Dreamworld), but for some reasons cw players didn't stuck with it
8. That's why competitive scene is dying, there's nothing to offer new players, and as you said, requirements to join are high

Geschrieben von Waffel, 25.01.2019 at 15:10

lets not forget that all the RP/Scenarioclans invite and accept almost any newcomer to their clans before they even have a chance to pick what kind of player they want to become. Most of the scenario/rp clans have amounts of 150/200/300 people in it, where most competitive clans have no more than 25/30 people in a clan. I mean this alone shows the gap between the two communities.

what a bunch of newcomers

Geschrieben von Waffel, 25.01.2019 at 15:10

Not every scenario is Neuordnung, you know. And the thing about competitive players being better than scenario players in their own maps is mostly a myth, as usually these competitive "challengers" are some of the competitive community's top players, and even they usually fall short of defeating some of the scenario community's best players, even if they can beat the average player. On the matter of scenario players being defeated by EU players on EU, that's mostly due to EU requiring a number of niche knowledge concerning the map in order to play it. I'd argue more but my capslock is broken and having to use shift to capitalise is suffering...

Geschrieben von Zephyrusu, 25.01.2019 at 19:00

Geschrieben von Waffel, 25.01.2019 at 15:10

Not every scenario is Neuordnung, you know. And the thing about competitive players being better than scenario players in their own maps is mostly a myth, as usually these competitive "challengers" are some of the competitive community's top players, and even they usually fall short of defeating some of the scenario community's best players, even if they can beat the average player. On the matter of scenario players being defeated by EU players on EU, that's mostly due to EU requiring a number of niche knowledge concerning the map in order to play it. I'd argue more but my capslock is broken and having to use shift to capitalise is suffering...

What about competitive players like me destroying scenario players on a daily basis. Let me tell you now, there is little skill involved in scenarios. It's easy mode whenever I play them. I actually have to put mental effort to duel and cw.

Geschrieben von Witch-Doctor, 25.01.2019 at 19:04

What about competitive players like me destroying scenario players on a daily basis. Let me tell you now, there is little skill involved in scenarios. It's easy mode whenever I play them. I actually have to put mental effort to duel and cw.

You don't represent the average competitive player, and besides, I've seen you lose in scenarios plenty. Even supposing you personally win in scenarios all the time, it's been shown that other competitives that have tried their luck on scenarios, such as Laochra, did not show the same results. Besides, you play scenarios almost as regularly as most scenario players, you can hardly be called a competitive-only player.

Geschrieben von Witch-Doctor, 25.01.2019 at 19:04

What about competitive players like me destroying scenario players on a daily basis. Let me tell you now, there is little skill involved in scenarios. It's easy mode whenever I play them. I actually have to put mental effort to duel and cw.

Calling yourself a competitive player is very funny. Have you forgotten who you are? Check what percentage of your games are scenarios. I think it's at least 25%, even though you abandon scenarios more than the duels so many of those games remain hidden.

Njab is someone who has participated in every sphere of the game at some point in his career, so I think his perception of the game is of alot of value. Furthermore, what he has posted, he is right

Sorry njab, but I have to disagree with you this time. Fully disagree.

Geschrieben von Guest, 25.01.2019 at 14:14

First of all, the number of competitive players is constantly shrinking. Since almost all currently active ones registered before 2016 and you can see more and more players going inactive every day, the trend is obvious.

The trend is not obvious, but traditional I would say. Every year, about ten players go inactive or temporary inactive.
Every year about ten newbies come to competitive scene actually become part of it. Player more or less, but the numbers are pretty covering each other, every year.
At least that's the case while I am here, for 5 years.

Several last seasons, we've got fine number of lads who actually adapted to competitive scene and became the active part of it.
Let me mention few of them like: Tengri, Dominoz, josipjefaca, Hu4rollz, Lelouch, Kaixo, Vuk!, Tzion, Roscosmos, Lausitz, BlueDNA, Skileap, KingOfWinner, Milei, Beast, ...
Let me also mention few of guys who came back from inactives like: The Tactician, Aspect, LukeTan, Enigma Code, Sun Tzu, Hertz, JF, Wheelo, GK, Checkmate, Eagles, Franz, Cold Case, Steve, Invisible, zappa, Prince, even Jester, .....

Geschrieben von Guest, 25.01.2019 at 14:14

Currently active coalitions have at most 100 competitive players, for which I doubt more than half are active. Back in 2016 in the peak period of overall activity, Epic Clan had almost 60 members itself, out of which almost all played CW. Let's not even mention other coalitions like ENIGMA, SM and Mystics all had 20-30 players each. MK and several other smaller coalitions had up to 20 aswell. Unlike in this moment, at that time 90% of the mentioned players were active. The bar to join is very high aswell. All the skills of new players are overshadowed by experience of the old players who are playing the same map for years and years.

I won't even comment this numbering. EC never had 60 players of which almost everyone was cwing. It just had 60 players. Barely half of them were active in cws.
ex ENIGMA still has 20-30 splitted in Amigos and Gentlmen Club. Same with MK. Majority of SM players, except 5-6 leaders, are still being around. Mystics, Shadow Aces, evoL are replaced with some new coalitions with new guys, let's say by Peaky Blinders, Gifted, Panthenon, Immortals... The leaders are same oldfags, but majority are new guys who came to rule the scene; like Grom, 4nic, Froyer, Tengri, .......
I do agree that cw spam and competitive players' activity back in 2016. was incredible. But hey, what are we even discussing now; 5 most active coalitions at this moment have more than 500 cws already and we have just passed the half of the season before several days.
Also, there was barely ever more than 120 competitive players at same moment. Barely ever. Maybe in the 2015., but not many more.
Currently, there are about 110-120 half-active and active competitive players, about 60 of them actually participate the clan wars, which is great.
Whatever you say in the contrary, it is great number for competitive scene.

Let me do a comparison of current competitive happenings with the ones in our history.
2 seasons before the current one, we had many old school players taking some months of rest. Several of them silently went inactive. We had only 2 coalitions which passed the number of 100 cws. Peakys and Mortal.
Nowadays, we have ALREADY 5 coalitions who in total have about 500 cws ALREADY. And still more than 1 month till the season end.
I remember in 2015. , when there was a boom with Cosa Nostra when we had abnomrally many cws and 2 seasons after, the cw scene seemed to be 'dead' as you guys like to say. And then again, 2016. happens. Then again 2017. happens. Then again 2018.
There will always be a season or two with less competing due to all our university or school obligations, there will always be several strong players going inactive due to their life obligations, but competitive scene will never go dead. With 50 or 80 active players, with 100 or 120 competitive players in total, it just goes on. Like everything on this game or in this life.


Generaly said, I see all those words like as fake bad roumors as there were about atwar dying ones. Isn't it funny and boring theme already

Geschrieben von Guest, 25.01.2019 at 14:14

Second, the most basic competitive setting, EU+ 10k, has been played out. Since the vast majority of games are played with 6 picks and each team can pick one of the two picks in three parts of the map, there are 8 combinations total to play. Even with a few extra combinations, there is not much change. Adding that the most games are decided in first 8 turns, you can conclude the initial picks as well as the initial picks are the deciding factor in the victory. Now tell me what is the last time you've seen something new happening in CW? All moves have already been seen, they all have been played out. There have been at least 6000 CWs so far (90% of them on EU+) and at least 10 times that many duels on EU+.

The solution to that is obvious, and it's that the competitive scene stops being elitist, exclusive and egocentric. Playing diverse maps, even the other parts of world map, as well as scenarios, would increase the number of people participating in CWs 10 times. There are far more scenario, RP and world map players than competitive players, as it could be seen from several polls conducted in past. The exclusion of them from one of the most interesting features this game offers has to stop, or the game will ultimately suffer. Choose wisely.

Wait, these words you have said are so contradictory...
Whole game will ultimately suffer because of cca. 120 competitive players like to play always the same fast, tactical game on eu+ map?
I don't get it. What you even wanted to say with that sentence?

Can you answer me why people still play football, tennis, or any other sport for centuries?
22 players on the green pitch with always the same 8 formations try to put the ball in the enemy goal.
2 or 4 players on 3 various courts try to put the ball on the enemy territory above the net
Or whatever else sport....

People just like that and enjoy what they enjoy, you cannot threaten a tennis player to go playing basketball or the sport will ultimately suffer in general. Sorry man, but this thread in general is a pure bullshit.
People like me (competitive players) just enjoy the EU+ game where every CW is different, independently how similiar they look to each other or how 'played out' they may look to you (I tried to explain that to you banally with the sports). Also, I don't have time and nervs for those scenario or rp things. And they are ultimately boring to me.

I can't ever see myself stacking and spamming units to complete a scenario which lasts for 3,4,5,6, hours. I don't have that much time for that shit. I don't find it interesting.
Lastly, I don't see the point in such games. I find them useless. The same way you find pointless and useless competitive eu+ map.
It's a fucking free will of individual. They can either enjoy in mindgaming on smaller map or they can enjoy in spamming on a bigger map. I don't see the problem in that.

PS. No one holds you to organise scenario clan wars. What the fuck competitive players have with those big crowd of noobs cwing between each other? No one is stopping them to expand the criteriums of maps played as coalition wars. But no one will ever stop me or guys who enjoy the same 'one and only' map of playing it. Neither will anyone force me to move on something else. Never ever. And we will never ever be dying.

Njab u realise there has been around 500 cws this season with 15 clans competing ? as far as gifted is concerned vast majority of the time if we are feeling like cwing we don't really have any issue finding ppl to cw with and while we are not one of these 'elitist' clan you keep talking about we all end up having a good time

Geschrieben von Guest, 25.01.2019 at 14:14

First of all, the number of competitive players is constantly shrinking.

I wasn't planning on replying to this but I will because Gifted's name was mentioned and well... I'm a proud papa.

I've ranted and raved myself about the death of comp. As Hu4 mentioned I (and some other Gifted members) have tried to rekindle the competitive field by giving Comp Eu fresh players.

Heat Check speculated that one reason comp eu seems "so low" is the amount of time it takes for someone to genuinely "get good". To learn basic mechanics, to get comfortable with expansions and restricted map. Most of all, imagine being an r6 with few upgrades playing against r11.... It's daunting.

Even my clan for example. A fact that I laugh out loud to myself about is Gifted is infamous for getting walled. It's not Gifted vs Amigos, or Gifted vs PB... it's always ALWAYS Gifted vs Walls! haha!!!

We are noobs! We suck, I'll be the first to say. But my clan isn't about winning. We are learning and we hope our enthusiasm and desire to get good and just 3v3 all day will trickle down to others.

Personally, I've recruited and trained folks from rp and scen maps. I've been teaching people what I know from the ground up. It's such an incredibly slow process... You have to spend a good couple days just getting them to do a germ expa in under 4 minutes... thats if they play every day. It's so hard to teach people and my clanmates will tell you how stressed I have been trying to wrangle my men into submission. I had a couple leave on me too because either a) I wasn't a good enough teacher. or b) they felt Eu wasn't for them.

I haven't given up. And you're my brother, Njab I hope you don't give up on comp Eu. It's a long uphill battle, and many of us aren't as steeled as your generation. We need help to get good. If you could help us speed things along and train new folks again that'd be great and before you know it Comp Eu will be bigger than ever before.

Geschrieben von Lion Sin Escanor, 25.01.2019 at 20:39

Njab u realise there has been around 500 cws this season with 15 clans competing ? as far as gifted is concerned vast majority of the time if we are feeling like cwing we don't really have any issue finding ppl to cw with and while we are not one of these 'elitist' clan you keep talking about we all end up having a good time

Agree.

THIS SEASON:
There have been 668 cws in 57 days of current season.
Averagely, 12 fucking clan wars per day.

Hello, njab, averagely 12 CWs per day.
Hello???

I don't know if it is record, but if no, it's pretty close to be.

12 CWs per day.

12

Hello, njab, are you here?

> 12 CWS PER DAY
> 'Competitive scene is dying'

Where is dammit b0nker to lock this case?


NVM, I will close it on my own.